Changes in the map? (admins remove if there alrdy is one)

I can just see a bunch of threads about removing invis, but I wanna discuss some other changes too.
I want people to be able to talk about changes here and if it's really big ones like invis or stacks you should probably make a new thread about it.

Changes I want to see:

*Fix sentries - At the moment sentries don't work. This is one of the main reasons why invis is so OP. You should really fix this

*Nerf bombers - I think bombers are pretty OP in many situations, for example in RT or as last survivor. Changing it back to how it was before or anything else would be better than now, what do you guys think?

*Maybe if a wolf leaves the gold/second should be increased

What do you think guys?

I dont get why we have bombers in the first place?

Shoop wrote:

I dont get why we have bombers in the first place?

Yeah, no exactly. Just remove / change them. They ruin fun and are no use in pro games or sometihng like that..

reduce sentry cost and make its true sight radius double that of a sheep.

Leave the bomber alone its actually a useful item in certain situations such as sheep going to save or during an isolation plus its the only skill shot item the wolf can get other then golem

increase wolf gold if wolf leaves uhh maybe? But people are still going to cry about 5v4s and 6v5s if a wolf leaves there is no way to make that fair.

Other ideas
Wolf blight item, would be the equivalent of placing an item down so the sheep couldnt build there except it would cover a larger area and last 1-2 minutes maybe.

Frost farms should be able to kill iron golems

Buff invul pot maybe lower price and increase duration

TraxxWOLF wrote:

*Maybe if a wolf leaves the gold/second should be increased

i'd say, if a wolf leaves, the gold, which he got, will be shared to everyone in team.
THe Wolf should stay atleast for this round because its easier with a afk wolf than with no wolf.

fix iron golem range, it's HUGE atm for NO REASON.

Fix golem speed. Golem range. Sheep True sight.

=> first to do.

Add another buy command.

=> "-buy saber" for 50g or something

This would actually just buy some sort of 'recipee' like in dota. It would only work if u have both a claw +60 and a gloves of haste and it would merge them into one item so you would have an extra item slot.

For example you could have one hit (4* +60claws), a golem and a gloves of haste. You would then -buy saber and ur first claw+60 would transform into a sabersword and your gloves of haste would disappear from your inventory. The saber would have +60dmg and the extra attackspeed from Gloves of haste. You could for example use the extra slot to buy a necklace

We could use your idea for more things.

Remove golem from the shop and turn golem into an ability that costs mana and have cooldown, when you used the ability you can still upgrade the golem into an irongolem, but maybe for 150 gold instead.

I just throw ideas into the pool

give wolves levels where they can skill golem/cloak/invis (nice side-effect: mana can be observed on roc, items can't)

give sheep a spell to make owls that can see invis (sheep-range), give wolves a 100g-item to shoot an owl

TraxxWOLF wrote:

*Fix sentries - At the moment sentries don't work. This is one of the main reasons why invis is so OP. You should really fix this

If you don't want to fix sentries, atleast remove them, they're a 20g-farm and noone can tell wether they are of any slightest use.
I'm for giving them a (atleast little) useful true-sight-range, so sheep can place them at tactical useful places

TraxxWOLF wrote:

*Nerf bombers - I think bombers are pretty OP in many situations, for example in RT or as last survivor. Changing it back to how it was before or anything else would be better than now, what do you guys think?

Bombers are sometimes annoying for sheep, but I think that's a good thing, it's not really abused in games and gives wolves to use for mid-range without unfair stunning/netting/killing

TraxxWOLF wrote:

*Maybe if a wolf leaves the gold/second should be increased

I think gold/second is high enough anyway, rather put 2 shared iron-golems into mid after 8 sec or so or make some OP-items available

ShoresOfEden wrote:

Add another buy command.
=> "-buy saber" for 50g or something

I'm not a fan of DotA, but I guess it's a good idea, just begging ya not to make too many recipes, atleast in beta-versions, because debugging/balancing-discussions will get out of hand pretty fast

NoMapgrid wrote:

Fix golem speed. Golem range. Sheep True sight.

What's wrong with golem speed? Golem range doesn't seem amazingly high either. Sheep true sight probably deserves an own section (--> invis discussion/maybe solved by sentry/owl/any other idea)

Camman guys.

If you're going to come up with changes you need to define what they are based on. Otherwise you're just throwing random shit around based on your personal preferences. You like the colour pink so you think we should make the terrain pink - sure, but this has no utility for anyone.

You need to define what criteria you base your suggestions on and then suggest changes that align according to defined criteria. Personally, I use the criteria of mastery. Everything I suggest is based on and conforms to that criteria.

Ideas such as giving sentries true sight and giving wolves a golem ability(implied increase in golem use) decrease mastery. Why? Because building sentries before going out of your base is a mindless task that anyone can do and doesn't require any skill whatsoever. A golem ability, in its current form, also decreases mastery because it increases the amount of probabilistic assessments the sheep have to make(luck).

My suggestions are as follows:

- Add stack (with limitations or not)

With this in mind:

- Add golem ability
- Keep invis as it is (alternatively increase true sight by sheep fractionally)

Now suddenly invis can be countered through mastery(through SKILL).

Now suddenly sheep don't have to make probabilistic assessments(lucKS) every time they pass through a vulnerable area. Instead, they can use the stack and remove any luck aspect - either you remember to protect yourself against golems and have a near 100% survival rate - or you don't place a stack and you are punished as you can only HOPE that the wolf doesn't have a golem(luck, no skill).

TristanWolf wrote:

Camman guys.

If you're going to come up with changes you need to define what they are based on. Otherwise you're just throwing random shit around based on your personal preferences. You like the colour pink so you think we should make the terrain pink - sure, but this has no utility for anyone.

You need to define what criteria you base your suggestions on and then suggest changes that align according to defined criteria. Personally, I use the criteria of mastery. Everything I suggest is based on and conforms to that criteria.

Ideas such as giving sentries true sight and giving wolves a golem ability(implied increase in golem use) decrease mastery. Why? Because building sentries before going out of your base is a mindless task that anyone can do and doesn't require any skill whatsoever. A golem ability, in its current form, also decreases mastery because it increases the amount of probabilistic assessments the sheep have to make(luck).

My suggestions are as follows:

- Add stack (with limitations or not)

With this in mind:

- Add golem ability
- Keep invis as it is (alternatively increase true sight by sheep fractionally)

Now suddenly invis can be countered through mastery(through SKILL).

Now suddenly sheep don't have to make probabilistic assessments(lucKS) every time they pass through a vulnerable area. Instead, they can use the stack and remove any luck aspect - either you remember to protect yourself against golems and have a near 100% survival rate - or you don't place a stack and you are punished as you can only HOPE that the wolf doesn't have a golem(luck, no skill).

Sidey, as you put it stacks are wonderful. But stacks add so much more things than just what you bring up here. I cba write huge discussions but adding stacks back for just countering invis is retarded. Then you can make smaller changes with same effect.

TristanWolf wrote:

Camman guys.
You like the colour pink so you think we should make the terrain pink - sure, but this has no utility for anyone.
Personally, I use the criteria of mastery. Everything I suggest is based on and conforms to that criteria.

here: pink = mastery
Anyway, I'm sure many people want map-changes to increase mastery. My main aim is to increase tacical team-thinking and therefore discussions such as stack or invis pretty much go on my nerves (Although I see the need to talk about that stuff).

I have fun massing without having shiney stack-shows and without people runtagging, the fun I have is the prediction of what every single player does and what the whole enemy or allied team does. To me, it's fun to bridge, to make a donout around the middle and to double-save. (Golems are cool, too, because you still have to PREDICT wether the wolf throws one or not. Tinies are enough to counter golems with skill and theres no OP stack needed to create "nearly 100% chances" to counter them).
I don't need to master runtag, nor stack. I want to play WITH my team AGAINST another team, I don't see how runtag or stackfarms help to do that.

Please keep in mind that mastery causes fun for some people, and that's okay, but it is not the one and only criteria all players want to create/enjoy in a (high-quality) sheep tag game.

I agree that you should specify why you want changes.

I want to start the discussion around making golems an ability beacause I think it would change the roles of golems in sheep tag for the better. In modern st theory its not reasonable to buy golems, infact it is an insane investment unless you plan to get irongolems. Basicly the only times golems are worthwile is when you simply have too much gold.

With cooldown and manacost the roles of golems in st will change. Instead of no golems early game and golemspam lategame, we will get an evenly distrubuted threat of golems.

Another problem is that there is a big theoretical dilemma with todays golems. You can easily imagine scenarios in early-game where its actually smart of the sheep to play in a way that he would die if the wolf has a golem. This is beacause its simply insane of the wolves to get golems early game. In specific situations you can get a HUGE reward by getting golems, which in the long run is complete madness. This IS a problem in non-competitive games and to ignore it is a misstake and not adviseable if you want more fun games, better players and a developing community.

Quote :

Sidey, as you put it stacks are wonderful. But stacks add so much more things than just what you bring up here. I cba write huge discussions but adding stacks back for just countering invis is retarded. Then you can make smaller changes with same effect.

Wrong. You can add stacks without touching any aspects

For example a stack that can only be built when invis wolves are near (global antistack aura + regional anti-anti global stack aura on wolves).



And camman, I knew someone would bring up tinies. Tinies are worthless when you're being hunted and don't do shit vs invis. With a golem ability tinies = even more worthless. Do you see any youtube vidoes where people are playing godly with tinies? I don't really - I've seen plenty of godly stack play though. That's what I call the mastery limit!

I often avoided getting killed by a golem with tinies. And as I said: I'm not up to making a video with tinies, but want to advance team-based strategy. Stacks don't give me any upgrade to that.

I like shoops idea of the new golems, gotta consider that sheep, at start, often build risky lines to lock area (easy to fix if wolves start with less mana or so)

[quote="TristanWolf"]

Quote :

Do you see any youtube vidoes where people are playing godly with tinies? I don't really - I've seen plenty of godly stack play though. That's what I call the mastery limit!

Dude, check out xprox's videos. He uses them alot in a good way. I do have many clips where I show a mastery of tinies above the average use of them o.O

Add an item that gives an extra 5 gold per farm kill. Like a scythe or something so wolves can bank

Some people prefer sheeptag to be played more like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLAWZsnAo50 with more focus on teamwork and blabla, like lakes said.

Others prefer sheeptag to be played more like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pure4wEh9s0&feature=related

You have to find a balance between those two to satisfy most people. This is also what almost every sucessful game has done. Atm sheeptag clearly focus way too much on the aspects which lakes took up, this imo makes the map boring.

Add a command like -gall to split ur gold to every member in your team.
That would be more fair for teammates and faster than watching colors etc... ^^

Enstek are u completely insane? VIDEOS are made for entertainment , this is not a way to play in ANY sheep tag game. This is why larrys video is boring and traxx/xprox is fun to watch , although obviously everyone plays like in larrys video in normal games.

There are mainly 2 aspects that should be developed:
1. INVIS . There has been thousands of time when its almost IMPOSSIBLE to avoid getting killed with invis. U run out of mass like 1 cm and wolf instantly comes out , U HAD 0 sight over wolf when u were in farms. Invis should be fixed with either true sight increase of sheep or sentry vision increased.
2. Range. I have experienced colossal range on roc from both wolves and golems. Some people say its roc bug/ some people say chakra increased range. I dont care how u fix this , most importantly this should be fixed no matter what , almost everyone whines about 2 farm ranges.