Map Changes @ Madhatters

CAN SOMEBODY FACK UPLOAD IT ON A HOSTBOT ALRDY???

Btw i tried testing it on my normal host but somehow I could only host it on TFT and not on Roc.

However i was told that hostbots can still host it on roc o.o?

Theres definitely something wrong with -versus mode in the map i played.

Also i feel like u nerfed invis a bit too much, 100 range is a lot. Quite frankly i thought the default of true sight of current map was 675 and u changed it to 800. I might be wrong tho. Can we try 750?

Also bomber has been rendered completely useless. It can just destroy trees? Who fack does that in the first place anyway...

Beam is also nerfed a too much in my opinion :/

Also i dont think iron golems shud be 120. Better nerf them with lowering their movement speed SLIGHTLY (start with 10ms or so?)


Test was just a quick test which spanned over 15 min or so.. havent had the chance to test everything properly yet.

It was 725 before. 800 is the normal sight range of the sheep. Changing it that much seemed to defeat the purpose.

I never wanted to be mapmaker amir. I'm idea man. I just didn't want beeeh- aname shoop sidey and turbo_12 to play amateur hour when the map is released. I know you will only view me as some evil dictator of opinions, but really I just remember a time when there were 4 maps being played. It wasn't fun and the community was a lot larger than it was today. CBA to bother with one host bot hosting no invis no stacks, one hosting both, one hosting invis but no stacks, one with two hit saves etc, with mass boycotts and fighting in between. It is bad enough when some people like an old version and some people like a new version. Sheep tag's life is short term and I just want to play.

its easy to say that you don't want to split the community by making two different maps when you're deciding what comes and goes in the current official map. the ideal would be to have 1 mapmaker who listens to arguments and implements OBVIOUSLY good suggestions such as the ones presented in this thread. the second best thing is having 2 maps, one which implements good suggestions, and one which doesn't ^^

the community was larger before because there were different maps. people played noob-friendly maps, got interested in ST and it's concept, and eventually moved over to better maps. i dont think the community would have been big if the only map hosted before was the one we play now. but thats besides the point.

i don't even understand why shoop is against the idea of stacks countering invis, he hasn't explained that. all his earlier objections are taken care of. he just keeps posting ''remove invis brash'' without any justification.

drew is just spreading bullshit and trying to defend the extreme arrogance he showed as mapmacker. Every time I approached him for a serious discussion about mapchanges I was met by trolling and lies like "yeah Ill fix it on thursday". It was impossible to get straight answers and it was impossible to discuss anything with him.

drew is probably the most powergreedy person in this community who in the LONGEST tried to get people to use sheeptag.net instead of this forum, who banned people for fun and allowed his shamans to do likewise beacause he was in charge of the only used sheeptag channel in US East, who asked us to split up EDT when he knew he didnt have a chance 2008 "for the sake of competition", but have no problems with a WDT 2011 when he is in it. Do you seriously expect people do still believe your motives are anything but selfish?

Another way of phrasing "mass boycotting and fighting" is "no competition, no development of ideas, and no progress map and community-wise." It means the exact same thing.

I've already said this but any talk of "splitting the community" is mumbo-jumbo talk designed to settle the concerns of the masses and prevent any inquiry - in turn preventing any competition. It's political jargon that frames the idea of competition in a negative view - and some people HAVE ACTUALLY BOUGHT IT !!!!!!

Here we have a set of changes that not a single person in Europe is in large opposed to. That speaks for itself.

Amir, invis should be removed beacause it makes sheep tag boring. It rewards safemassing and patience instead of speedmassing and runtag which leads to static and repetitive games where you basicly get an automatic win as long as noone in the team takes any risks as sheep. It also give absurde rewards to maphackers.

ShoresOfEden wrote:

Theres definitely something wrong with -versus mode in the map i played.

Also i feel like u nerfed invis a bit too much, 100 range is a lot. Quite frankly i thought the default of true sight of current map was 675 and u changed it to 800. I might be wrong tho. Can we try 750?

Also bomber has been rendered completely useless. It can just destroy trees? Who fack does that in the first place anyway...

Beam is also nerfed a too much in my opinion :/

Also i dont think iron golems shud be 120. Better nerf them with lowering their movement speed SLIGHTLY (start with 10ms or so?)


Test was just a quick test which spanned over 15 min or so.. havent had the chance to test everything properly yet.

Versus worked perfectly for me and beer, could you be more specific?

100 range actually isnt that much, but if the majory wants it lowered i gladly will.

The majority of people wanted bomber to be pretty much useless.

Beam was actually buffed significantly... it is 25% cheaper and the 480 maximum damage is a very minor nerf.

Can I get some opinions on lowering iron golem move speed to 400 or 410(wolf=420 sheep=380) and reducing the cost to 100 or 110 gold?



Also, I don't understand why this map is considered to be the same as drew/chakras, over the span of one or two days I made every single change Euros requested(which probably about equals the changes to chakra/drew map over the past year) excluding the stack change, which I find pretty pointless currently.

Well when i was testing it, albeit irrelevant, we were 3 people...

When i typed -versus 1 2 red and blue just got picked as sheep. When i wrote -versus it was randomed. There was no drafting whatsoever.

We were playing it on tft though.. if that matters at all. Should require some more testing I guess.


If you compare the iron golm with a normal wolf, the iron golem comes out as the best of the two when it comes to positioning / covering a side or w/e simply because:
1. They have same movement speed (which is fine if it werent for 2.)
2. Much faster attackspeed

Also the goldcost initially was a 100g. Why'd u change it in the first place? I don't think i read complaints on this part though??!!

Think of the stuff you've done as "Chakra-changes." Chakra was/is famous for changing things that had absolutely no impact on game-play and making a big deal about them. He'd change wolf sight radius by 1% and release a new map. This is sort of what you've done - no one has anything to be excited about and game-play is the exact same as on revo map.

Adding the stack to counter invis and an increasing amount of golem use is a dynamic people have wanted for YEARS now. On paper the idea works - it allows a counter for invis and golems based on mastery. Simply increasing true sight removes mastery and maintains the amount of probabilistic assessments(luck) sheep have to make when it comes to golems.

Some of us have tested the map and it started to spike in game for all of us. I dont know if its map problems or not , but try to fix it.

Btw new icons for claws look BEASTY

Changes from 7.1.0 to 7.1.1
-Golem price fixed at shop (from 100 to 70)
-Terrain noised back to original 7.1 levels (Revised III)
-Potion of Strength and Beam of Strength can now be used multiple times in a row
-Iron Golem upgrade now costs 120 gold (from 100)

This is from the revolution updates post, and is why the iron golem price was changed to 120 gold, but I'll lower it back to 100 gold I guess.

In response to Tristan, where was increasing the amount of golems mentioned and do you really think adding stacks with the sole purpose of countering invis will greatly change gameplay? By my guess, the average person has to avoid an invisible snipe maybe 3 times in a versus game, meaning that adding stacks would lead to ~3 seconds of different gameplay a game. Changing the prices of the items I did has much more of an effect on gameplay than this.



When did the game start to spike? During regular gameplay? And are you sure its the game and not the host?
Beer tells me he was in the game and didn't experience any lag.

I was ingame as well and it was quite laggy. No idea if it was the bot or the map, as this was my first time playing it. Other than the lag it seemed pretty good. Martin wanted me to ask if being able to sell to shop from anywhere is intentional or a bug also.

Looking at the triggers I see I forgot to remove dead farms, this could potentially cause lag. Anyways, if this was the problem its now fixed.

As for selling the items, it is just an alternative to using -sell x, you get the same amount of gold. Again I can change if you want.

Thanks for the quick fix, hope it works. As for selling items I think it should be like it is. Skill_Ownz- just had some doubts for reasons unknown to me .

shoop, i can speedmass now and not die to invis because im good. how is safemassing rewarded? i can speedmass and take risks and not die, you(or someone less skilled) might have to safemass to not die. some insane analysis you have. SKILL is rewarded, and lack of skill is punished in that you have less farms when you could have had more if you were more skilled, WHILE keeping the obvious mastery of the invis. you dont get rewarded by massing slow when you can mass fast if you're good.

the ''maphackers'' objection might seem valid, but its a really insane argument. with that, you might want to add unlimited -zoom in sheeptag so that people with zoom hack dont get rewarded. you might want to give wolfs infinite gold so that gold-hackers dont get rewarded. shit, why not make everyone drop randomly so that people with drop-hack dont get rewarded. lets make the game laggy as shit so that people with good connection dont get an insane advantage rofl

the obvious sollution is to implement an anti-hack in one way or another, or systematically ban people who use hacks. there are tools to detect maphack, and there are ways to make a map which drops people that maphack.

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n response to Tristan, where was increasing the amount of golems mentioned and do you really think adding stacks with the sole purpose of countering invis will greatly change gameplay? By my guess, the average person has to avoid an invisible snipe maybe 3 times in a versus game, meaning that adding stacks would lead to ~3 seconds of different gameplay a game. Changing the prices of the items I did has much more of an effect on gameplay than this.

Reducing golems to 70 gold means more golems. There has also been talk of a possible golem ability in the community.

The sniping itself has nothing to do with anything. Everything has to do with the comfort one can mass fast at. Stacks allow for high skilled players to maintain a high massing speed without having to worry about invis - less skilled players will be forced to slow down. It's this dynamic everyone is pleading for.

My intuition tells me Drew has talked extensively with you on battle.net and that that is the reason you appear overly negative to these suggested changes. I hope that's not the case - it would be a shame if you ignored what everyone is asking for because your competitor is telling you to do this and that.

Golems are at 70 gold, unless you mean 70 gold portable? Ability is a possible suggestion for later.

Me and drew have not talked outside these forums, I just happen to agree that adding the stack for the sole purpose of countering invis isnt the best idea.

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I just happen to agree that adding the stack for the sole purpose of countering invis isnt the best idea.

Is it a bad idea or a useless idea? If it's the later, you should just do it (with my work, it would take literally three minutes to do). Unless you dislike my method (which I doubt any other will top). :X

TristanWolf wrote:

My intuition tells me Drew has talked extensively with you on battle.net and that that is the reason you appear overly negative to these suggested changes. I hope that's not the case - it would be a shame if you ignored what everyone is asking for because your competitor is telling you to do this and that.

Rofl. I haven't logged onto WC in a week. Too busy caring about academics and my future. Last week? I yelled at madhatters because he made stack farms so expensive in 1way and he kicked me from the game. This is some grand irony shit right hurr ^^

Anyways it's possible he actually read my post way back when on page 2 about your argument of invis-stacks or lackthereof being so retarded that it has to be politically motivated. Or he just came to that conclusion independently. I'm sorry you haven't managed to brain wash him yet Sidey, but that doesn't mean I have.

Ultimately though, I really don't care. It seems of minor importance, unless he messes up and adds back stack farms permanently. And anyways I'm not nearly as invested in sheep tag as I used to be.

I can reinforce the fact that Mad asked me and multiple top Euro players the general opinion on making a stack test map in the CsB channel last night. I know Shoop, Sidey, Exa, Amir, and Beer were there. I forget who else. Anyway, no one voted to even bother trying a stack test map (besides possibly Amir, though he may have been trolling ^^), in short Mad hasn't just been listening to Drew.

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I can reinforce the fact that Mad asked me and multiple top Euro players the general opinion on making a stack test map in the CsB channel last night. I know Shoop, Sidey, Exa, Amir, and Beer were there. I forget who else. Anyway, no one voted to even bother trying a stack test map (besides possibly Amir, though he may have been trolling ^^), in short Mad hasn't just been listening to Drew.

I believe your implication that BNET chatter/gossip constitutes empirically relevant evidence disqualifies you from further input in this debate.

I do imply that the mapmaker asking the opinion of a cross section of competent sheeptaggers is relevant, yes. Focus more on using words you understand in the future.

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I do imply that the mapmaker asking the opinion of a cross section of competent sheeptaggers is relevant, yes. Focus more on using words you understand in the future.

You include my name in your sample yet I'm not even aware of any of this happening. The richness of your data is zero.

You are Exa then? It was the aftermath of the st party, I thought you were there. Sorry this was so offensive for you lmao ^^.