Map Changes @ Madhatters

madhatters, im sry bro but ur map SUCKS ASS at the moment... it's even WORSE than revo. Add invis & stack and it will be fine.

btw, the majority are FOR stack and has ALWAYS been. The only reason why there's no stacks today is because the old mapmakers were HITLERS + mentally retarded

here's some rofl list ive made from the time after the removal of stack, when tft was a sinking ship. (Just some names to make it clear that the MAJORITY were FOR stacks)

FOR stack :

1.beeeh- - active sheeptagger
2.azzuro -active sheeptagger
3.magoo -active sheeptagger?
4.cmk 4 - very inactive cuz no stack/boring map
5.amir - plays dota cuz map is boring/no stack
6.jenuwar - quitted cuz map is boring/no stack
7.divineright - quitted cuz map is boring/no stack
8.milanreeves - active sheeptagger
9.Sidey - never play st anymore cuz no stack/boring map
10.sheepytaggernep 10 - active sheeptagger
11.pab29 - active sheeptagger
12.retur - active sheeptagger
13.riziy - active sheeptagger
14.sanies - ?
15.limi.ger - active sheeptagger
16.steko - active sheeptagger
17.tazz - active sheeptagger
18.thesilentsheep - active sheeptagger
19.tochen - roc player that started tft
20.trollpro - active sheeptagger
21.twinrova - active sheeptagger
22.sophia- - active sheeptagger
23.Nico_ - plays roc cuz tft st map is boring cuz no stack
24.masterofsheep - mostly plays dota cuz map is boring/no stack
25.Nomapgrid - active sheeptagger
26.jeanmii - plays bnet cuz map is no stack/boring map
27.blitz - active sheeptagger
28.manzzy - plays dota cuz map is boring/no stack
29.aname - active sheeptagger
30.twix-club - quitted cuz map is boring/no stack
31.st_racno - active sheeptagger
32.superbeast - active sheeptagger
33.theboogyman - quitted cuz map is boring/no stack
34.JD - quitted?
35.Srborja- - active sheeptagger?
36.Naddel - active sheeptagger
37.39. (his acc = 39.) - active sheeptagger
38.stor[m]y- - active sheeptagger
39.lapinboss - plays bnet cuz map is boring/no stack
40.executer- - quitted cuz no stack/boring map
41.cookielovestory - started again - active sheeptagger
42.xidantsheep? - active sheeptagger
43.theonesheep? - active sheeptagger
44.damiano - quitted cuz no stack/boring map
45.rikkeh.oSa - quitted cuz no stack/boring map
46.Nicknaldo - active sheeptagger
47.Shroomy - quitted?
48.Krusty_burger - plays HoN cuz no stack/boring map
49.My-World - active sheeptagger
50.Sim[b]a- - active sheeptagger

TraxxWOLF wrote:

Sorry for massive amount of posts in a row, but I dano how to fix that now, didnt notice where were 2 pages I had to answer to

But a question to madhatters: Have you remembered to implement stuff such as allies locator, checked all items works like sheep locator and have you changed the terrain ANYHING?

http://www.epicwar.com/maps/191147/

He has everything revo has and more... so yes allies locator all same items etc. etc.

Obviously invis should remain removed.

As for -afking, it sounds insane that you get +1 sc for every round. What is the reason for this? This gives you no incentive to come back at all and will just make ppl ruin game to get remake once they have 20 sc and rest of game have 10 if they come back. Change it back to how it was.

I also think -versus should be kept as it is now. You wont get same kind of competitive games if you make it into 20 minutes for both teams. Also a lot of games risk being ruined beacause the wolfteam want to win in 5 minutes and adjust there strategy after that, and when they fail they stand completley own and have to suffer through 15 min of boredome which is negative for both the sheep and wolves. Through a long perspective the only thing you add, compared to todays alterantive, are team 2:s winning marginal each round which is rarley as fun as the competitive part of versus. So you gain less fun sheep tag beacause some people in our community dont understand the concept of big data.

Otherwise nice, remove zoom too.

And btw, Beeehs list is just made up. For instance Jenuwar basicly didnt even play a map with stack in it and quit long before stack was removed.

Shoop wrote:

Otherwise nice, remove zoom too.

Do not remove zoom. If you do, add elepthants also, item that cover all map and kills all sheep!!!!

I Lol @ jenuwar ^^
Also congrats to traxx, first to notice one of the many problem with the stack to counter invis idea I made a whole argument against this on the other forum, to which sidey just repeated his post, pretend I didn't say anything and then went back to talking to some of the more degenerate euros and called me a hitler. I'm still too busy laughing to care all that much about it though, which may have been the grand plan.
Of course you guys really do let sidey get away with some crazy shit.

1. You let him claim that mastery is the one objective the map should be striving towards.
Why? Any obvious fail trends with this? I should think so. Making the terrain more noisy makes it harder to build. This adds mastery. So make the map noisy. OFC making the map even more noisier would make it even harder to build. That would add more mastery. So make the map even more noisy. OFC making the map even more noisy....
You start to notice I'm cheating somehow. Yeah you can cheat a lot when mastery is your criteria. What adds mastery for one thing destroys it for another.

2. How the fuck does dodging invis with a stack farm add mastery anyways, assuming this is a good thing? "Now a pro can react fast enough to block a shepherd."
KK I can play the retarded way. Without stack farms only pros can react fast enough to build a farm before the shep gets there, whereas with stack farms even noobs can react in time because stacks build on the sheps. And if I was wrong and pros couldn't react fast enough in no delay to build a farm before the shep got there? That my friends is an argument to raise true sight range instead of adding stack. 1+1=2400/1200. The real issue is invis tests reaction time which is a very simple and somewhat mindless skill that is more dependent on lag and whether or not you maphack then it will ever be on mastery.

Adding stacks just to counter invis is just a troll and would be the most laughable shit to ever see in game. I doubt it could work. He doubts it could work. But mostly he just wants to push the conversation to get stacks back, and make anti-stackers seem completely intractable for not granting this simple request.

The problem isnt that we "let Sidey get away" with anything. The problem is that this community is mainly kids/grown ups with little or no education after high-school. Sidey is hardly the person who gets away with most fallacies. You on the other hand activly ignore arguments you know are fallacies as long as you dont see them as a threat to waht you want and start trolling as soon as you are losing an argument.

If you really want to get rid of fallacies and manipulation in the sheep tag discussion start questioning everything. It is obvious the problem you have with Sidey is his opinions, not his ways of arguing.

My view on all this.

First of all my view in general on ST map evolution: I think we should strive to KEEP and add as much options for wolves as possible and if needed make it harder for sheep. This is keeping in mind that wolfing is obviously the boring aspect of ST but I think we're moving in the right direction. Mainly with additions such as cheaper golems, irons, adding cheaper str/beam, invispot thats actually useful, etc.

Now to address things separately.
• Bomber: Much has to my surprise been said about this item. Although for me bomber is a small concern I'd like to point out that it's not the item with the lowest skillfactor AT ALL. This is an absurd claim (This isnt a personal attack on you traxx). Bomber in my opinion should stay as it is. It blocks choke points when you're runtagging but a smart runtagger will learn to anticipate on this. For example change direction right before 'taking' the choke point of blocking the choke point earlier on. What you probably could add is making it harder to aim the bomber so only skilled players can aim it well on a chokepoint.

==> Idea to nerf bomber: Adding a 2sec casting delay to it but increase the range from where u can cast it. In other words the wolf will have to estimate where and when the sheep will run and where he will want to block it. I dont really think bomber needs nerfing and this idea might seem a bit far-fetched but yeee, it might please the runtaggers.

• Cloak: the bug has caused for a surprisingly new tactic and I like it although I think we should put it a bit more on par with 1 hit (4* 60claws). Cloak adds yet another option to wolves and is still much different from the regular one hit. While one hit is a bit easier to cut and isolate faster, cloak cuts more farms and gives more gold and ofc is cheap in the current version. Making cloak a bit more expensive should do the trick in my opinion.

• Stacks: The way sidey describes the new stacks is the only way i could find myself to compromise on them. The only thing I'm afraid of is that some of the 'pro-stackers' see this 'new stackfarm' as the first step in bringing back the old stacks. I dont want the crazy, OP stackfarmjumps back from the old times. You have to be a beeeh to want that.

• Invis pot: First of all, keep invis. It adds an extra dynamic to the game and any claims of 'It makes the game boring and static' are personal and biased and definitely don't count for all sheeptaggers. Even if u don't add the stacks as sidey presents them, keep invis. I wanna try to add a 50 range true sight though to the map, especially if you're not adding the newly described stacks.

• Versus: As most of u agree on we can add a 20min timer for the second team and also an acknowledgement of when exactly the second team has won. But what u can also do instead of just giving 20 min regardless of what team 1 did => Add 50% extra time on what the first team did. So for example if the first team sheeped for 6 minutes, the second team gets a time of 9 minutes (in other words rewarding them with 3 extra minutes or 50% extra). This is just an idea ofc. What u can also do is just add 6 minutes to whatever time team 1 did. So if team 1 did 2 minutes, team 2 can do 8 minutes. Again, just an idea. This versus issue is also a minor concern on my list.

So much to respond to...

First, since no one but me has objected to simply making bombers a tree killing item, does anyone object to making it a 20/28 gold item, that no longer blocks sheep at all, and possibly removing it from the quick shop?

Second, my way of removing stacks if there isn't an invisible wolf wouldn't allow
"This will obviously make you able to understand when invis is close to you and therefore just stay inside farms and change direction?"
this because the sheep would have to waste 10 gold every time they wanted to do this and the wolf would have to be extremely close to not remove the stack.... 600 range is less than our current true sight, so if the stack was removed, the wolf would already be in sight. Chakra's way of doing it would allow you to "see" the invisible shepherd however(if I'm not mistaken the stack farm would be red for unbuildable everywhere but near an invisible wolf).

Third, "The worse team will have no incentive to play once they lose. Some may AFK, others may just start chatting. I doubt many will try as hard as possible to "not lose by much.""
I see what you mean, but by this logic every wolf would afk every 2v4/3v5 etc. because they don't like wolfing and they can't win due to a lack of competition. It would be a courtesy to play as hard as you can as wolf in hopes that when the tables were turned the wolves played as hard as they could against you.

Fourth, me and drew are hardly competitors and if I were to ignore 1 of the 4ish people who are actively posting on this thread I would be retarded. Also, his ideas make sense. Right now you want to implement stack farms for the sole purpose of defending invis, but raising true sight/sight range would counter it just as effectively. I guess the real question is do you want invis to stress the reaction time of turning around or the reaction time of throwing down two stacks in front of you? If you disagree with this or have an answer, please speak up.

Fifth, saying shit like "madhatters, im sry bro but ur map SUCKS ASS at the moment... it's even WORSE than revo. Add invis & stack and it will be fine." is more likely to make me ignore the changes out of spite than add them. Also, making a bullshit list isnt helping either.

Sixth, "I stress again, NOT A SINGLE PROMINENT PLAYER IN THE EUROPEAN COMMUNITY is opposed to trying these ideas out." Again blatant lies aren't going to help at all, Shoop is clearly against invis and he is one of the most active(and best i think?) Euro players.

God damnit, another monster post...

And now we have an objection to removing bomber. The 2 second nerf would effectively cripple the item, but I see where you are going, and maybe a .5 second cast or something would work. We could also lower the amount of time the bomber stays to say 1 second. I think that lowering the duration of the inferno to 1 second, adding a small cast time, and keeping the price the same would be a pretty solid compromise no?

Cloak Im pretty sure I answered in a previous post.

Im starting to lean towards readding invis, on the condition that we increase sight by a good amount(50 range translates to something like .12 seconds of extra time before the wolf reaches the sheep) or add stacks.

I'll comment a bit more on how my method works.
Basically, what it does is dynamically move a building centered on the shepherd--this creates some odd effects. While it may not be noticed with farms because of their small size, units are only revealed on the mainmap once their origin is in the vision radius. That means this dynamic stack-enabling structure isn't "visible" (it never is, but in the sense of if it had a model) until the shepherd is. If you can't see a structure's origin, the pathing map isn't seen either.

That is, you need to SEE the shepherd for the aura to start enabling. This, effectively, would be the radius of true sight on the sheep. IE, stacks can only be created within the radius of true sight AND the stack-enabling 32x32 grid around the shepherd.

Secondly, an issue I discovered that while the placement grid turns red, you can still try to "place" the stack farm here. That is, the placement would "die" after trying to place, but your sheep will not be ordered to do it. Instead, you'll get an error message (oddly, says something about blight, which can be changed in the Gameplay Constants).

---

Now for my two cents on other issues.

Bomber: Personally think it should stay the same OR do what ShoresOfEden said. Should be commented that as of ReVo, it has like a .5 delay (or more) due to falling animation that proceeds the infernal. Removing it's ability to block would be silly--why not just get a cut tree ability, then?

Invis pot: We have gone back and forth on trying to change the true sight radius of the sheep. But if you really want to keep trying (rather than accepting it for it's faults or just removing it), go ahead. -_-

Versus: It's a simple matter of nature to try less if you can't win either way--even if it is the right thing to do or not. People give up when they are already in the clear to lose, now you want them to play even further? There is a reason it was changed to +1 second as opposed to both rounds being 20 minutes (as it was before).
Next you might suggest making it impossible to end the game if sc's aren't equal. -_-

Bomber: Does this mean you support the adding a slight cast time and reducing the duration slightly suggestion?

Invis Potion: I did remove it lol, but apparently an overwhelming amount of people want it in the game so we need to increase the sight range or add stacks.

Versus: I still believe that between courtesy and the desire to wolf as little as possible will encourage wolves to try as hard as they can.

Quote :

Sixth, "I stress again, NOT A SINGLE PROMINENT PLAYER IN THE EUROPEAN COMMUNITY is opposed to trying these ideas out." Again blatant lies aren't going to help at all, Shoop is clearly against invis and he is one of the most active(and best i think?) Euro players.

I've stated over and OVER again that every single major player on Europe is in large in agreement with these changes. Shoop is against keeping invis but he is for all the other changes. Other players are against other aspects but for the majority. No decision is ever going to be unanimous but this is as good as it gets.

Quote :

Fourth, me and drew are hardly competitors and if I were to ignore 1 of the 4ish people who are actively posting on this thread I would be retarded. Also, his ideas make sense. Right now you want to implement stack farms for the sole purpose of defending invis, but raising true sight/sight range would counter it just as effectively. I guess the real question is do you want invis to stress the reaction time of turning around or the reaction time of throwing down two stacks in front of you? If you disagree with this or have an answer, please speak up.

If you don't want to be a competitor there's no need for you to exist to put it bluntly. Everyone is sick and tired of Drew's changes and now you're going to follow the guy that ruined the map? WHAT? I'm telling you to directly ignore him because needs to be your competitor, he has an abysmal track record, and is widely known for stalling any sort of ideas that he thinks may challenge his own vision of the map.

This is not a debate thread - everyone is not going to agree on anything. I'm asking you to suspend judgement on what is a set of changes demonstrably supported by every single prominent player in Europe and DIRECTLY challenge Drew's map with a completely different vision. I'm asking you to open up a free market and crash this monopoly chakra, drew, and gosusheep have abused for years and in the process ruined the community.

Ok it seems apparent we can't just throw all these changes in at once. So let's put stack farm aside for a second.

For the next version of the map heres what you need to do for testing purposes and just for an idea of where everything stands

Versus time 20 both teams
Increase Sheep True Sight OR Increase Sentry farm True Sight (this would allow sheep to counter invis by simply placing a sentry farm in a proper spot)
Make tiny farms 1 gold 1 bounty
Remove Bomber OR make it just a tree killing device as you said

Make those changes release the map and lets try it out. If increasing sheep true sight is not enough we can try "stack aura" idea. If versus time 20 for both just ruins games then will swap it back. Those changes I stated above are not to drastic and should allow us to see where we are at.

How can you seriously think bomber is a skilled item? It requires 0 skill to place it on "entrances" to hill when you see a sheep going there. Ive seen newcomers kill legends with it, the only thing it does is reducing runtag scenes which is one of the funniest parts of the game. It's is useless in a big mass and to counter runtagging with an imba item seems just lame to me.

How did u manage to interprete that as me saying it was a skilled item? I said its not the item with the lowest skill required. Thats probably a gem or w/e.

As i said, runtaggers should learn to anticipate a bomber. For example blocking earlier in a chokepoint and 'waiting' for the inferno to disappear. But w/e i proposed a nerf, you should rather comment on that.

We don't have the bomber because it is a skillfull item, but because it blocks a skill-less concept (terrain-enforced choke points). Although sometimes it might (with a large degree of luck) be used skillfully.

Bombers should be removed.

Shoop wrote:

Bombers should be removed.

+1

A quick summary of the changes I have made to the map I released yesterday.
These changes are in no way final and keep in mind that I am trying my best to determine what the community wants, but also what will keep the community together.

>Versus always resets to the <Time> for the second round.
Example: a versus with time 20, the first team lasted 7 minutes, the timer window would read:
-----------------------------------------------
|Tie At 13:00///////////////////// 20:00| (the ////// are spaces in game)
-----------------------------------------------
If this is unclear or can be improved let me know.

>Strength Potion cost reduced from 40/56 to 35/49.
>Strength Beam cost reduced from 80/112 to 60/84.
>Strength Beam now deals 480 damage at most.
>Cloak cost reduced from 140/180 to 120/160.
>Bomber is now removed instantly and cost reduced from 40/56 to 20/28.
>Increased True Sight from 700 to 765 range.
>Invis reintroduced, but kept off the quick shop.
>Z Toggle Leaderboard no longer cancels invis.

I'm not releasing this map just yet, this is just what I've done so far.
Let me know what you think.

nice, release it!

Very nice start mad! You can definitely release this very anticipated.

http://www.epicwar.com/maps/191212/

Sheep Tag ReVoLuTiOn 7.1.3M

Has the above changes and:

>Tiny Farm bounty reduced from 4 to 1 and gold cost increased from 0 to 1
>Sheep True sight range increased from 700 to 800.

WOOP WOOP everyone get on so we can play

madhatters, you mentioned shoop as a ''prominent player'' that is against keeping invis, and ignored everyone who is FOR keeping it. there is a much bigger number of ''prominent players'' who are for adding stacks as a counter to invis than there is for removing invis from the map.

just adjusting the timelimits on versus and re-working bombers will be an small change and will make minimal difference between drews map and your own. there is no need to have 2 maps and 2 mapmakers if the maps will be more or less identical.



the way i see it is this:
drew: can keep the traditions. debate every mapchange for a couple of years, then act according to his own vision and ignoring opposing arguments.

madhatters: should be more open to ideas and trying shit out. if it works and people like it; keep it. if it turns out to be bad; remove it.

this way you will create competition between the two maps and the two different approaches to map-development. the inferior method and map will eventually get thrown out. EVOLUTION!!!! keep in mind that drew can do ANYTHING he wants with his own map. the only reason he has to influence YOUR map is to keep his own power. if his ideas are truly superior to the ones most european players support, his map will be the one that everyone is going to play.

@Amir he actually made a good bit of changes to the map. Involving fixing many glitches and adjusting items. Let him get a working map out in the open first before he begins making other changes such as stack.

yes yes obviously. for all i care he can do whatever he wants, its his map, and ive told him that.

im just trying to make the purpose here clear, and i repeat: there is no need for 2 mapmakers and 2 maps if the maps are going to be identical. the only sense i can make out of having both drew editing a map and having madhatters working on his own map is if there is some sort of critical difference between them, either in the mapchanges or the way they decide to develoup the map.

therefor it doesn't make sense for madhatters to listen to drew and his ideas. drew can implement whatever he wants into his own map, and people will play his map if its better than madhatters' map. if madhatters listens to the ''european'' ideas which are widely supported amongst european players, we can have 2 maps and finally figure out which sort of gameplay people prefer.